On Tue, 10 May 2005 17:37:35 +0100, "mark | r" <markrush@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>"www.1-script.com" <info_at_1-script_dot_com@foo.com> wrote in message
>news:u84ge.30990$8b3.24084@fe06.news.easynews.com ...
>> mark | r wrote:
>>
>> > ive started a discussion on accessifyforum about how i think that
>> > accessible
>> > websites are at a disadvantage because they practice honesty in a
>> > dishonest
>> > industry (seo) and that many small websites wish small budgets created
>> > without the use of a copywriter from content supplied by a client need
>> > 'black hat' techniques to get a decent position...
>>
>> > anyone want to comment on this?
>>
>> > Mark
>>
>> How in the world ACCESSIBLE websites (to visitors and, therefore search
>> engines? or you use this word in some other sense?) can be at
>disadvantage?
>
>because a page titled "fred jones and sons widget manufacturers" is going to
>go nowhere fast on the search engines when it should say "widgets widget
>manufacturers widget sales - fred jones" - accessible design states that
>page titles have to be TITLES not keywords!
>
>ok you can work around it but then its not accessible any more is it?
>
>Mark

You have to be ingenious.

BB

--
www.kruse.co.uk/ seo@kruse.demon.co.uk
seo that watches the river flow...
--

"T.J." <no1@home.invalid> wrote in message
news:d5qrf8$f5j$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "mark | r" <markrush@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4280b99b$0$329$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com.. .
> > ive started a discussion on accessifyforum about how i think that
> > accessible
> > websites are at a disadvantage because they practice honesty in a
> > dishonest
> > industry (seo) and that many small websites wish small budgets created
> > without the use of a copywriter from content supplied by a client need
> > 'black hat' techniques to get a decent position...
> >
> > anyone want to comment on this?
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
>
> I have numerous pages that are AAA compliant and
> rank high for the target phrases.
> Getting in to a habit of creating accessible pages is a
> good thing to do and makes building new optimised pages
> so much easier.

let me review the accessibility - whats your url!

mark

"Big Bill" <kruse@cityscape.co.uk> wrote in message
news:upa281hm7a84pt9qcanm7ih4ja4ffegfi8@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 10 May 2005 17:37:35 +0100, "mark | r" <markrush@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"www.1-script.com" <info_at_1-script_dot_com@foo.com> wrote in message
> >news:u84ge.30990$8b3.24084@fe06.news.easynews.com ...
> >> mark | r wrote:
> >>
> >> > ive started a discussion on accessifyforum about how i think that
> >> > accessible
> >> > websites are at a disadvantage because they practice honesty in a
> >> > dishonest
> >> > industry (seo) and that many small websites wish small budgets
created
> >> > without the use of a copywriter from content supplied by a client
need
> >> > 'black hat' techniques to get a decent position...
> >>
> >> > anyone want to comment on this?
> >>
> >> > Mark
> >>
> >> How in the world ACCESSIBLE websites (to visitors and, therefore search
> >> engines? or you use this word in some other sense?) can be at
> >disadvantage?
> >
> >because a page titled "fred jones and sons widget manufacturers" is going
to
> >go nowhere fast on the search engines when it should say "widgets widget
> >manufacturers widget sales - fred jones" - accessible design states that
> >page titles have to be TITLES not keywords!
> >
> >ok you can work around it but then its not accessible any more is it?
> >
> >Mark
>
> You have to be ingenious.
>
> BB
>
> --
> www.kruse.co.uk/ seo@kruse.demon.co.uk
> seo that watches the river flow...
> --

i think that leads to non accessible techniques where you bend the rules -
theres no rule bending in accessability. You also have to shorten titles and
link text to the shortest possible descriptive texts so the previous mention
of:

About widget manufacturing
Questions about Widgets
Widget price list

....is a massive no-no. the argument runs like "i know they manufacture
widgets (because of the page title) so you shouldnt repeat widgets in the
nav"

mark

"John Bokma" <john@castleamber.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96527CE731A9Acastleamber@130.133.1.4...
> John Bokma wrote:
>
> > Widget manufacturer Fred Jones (but I doubt if you should put)
>
> Fred Jones there, and I would do it only once, *unless* Fred Jones is well
> known :-)

for small sites where the nav is typically somethign like:

home / about / services / products / case studies / contact

it makes it hard to be accessible and optimised, dont you lot agree?

Mark

"mark | r" <markrush@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4281bb8c$0$264$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com.. .
>
> "T.J." <no1@home.invalid> wrote in message
> news:d5qrf8$f5j$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>
>> "mark | r" <markrush@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4280b99b$0$329$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com.. .
>> > ive started a discussion on accessifyforum about how i think that
>> > accessible
>> > websites are at a disadvantage because they practice honesty in a
>> > dishonest
>> > industry (seo) and that many small websites wish small budgets created
>> > without the use of a copywriter from content supplied by a client need
>> > 'black hat' techniques to get a decent position...
>> >
>> > anyone want to comment on this?
>> >
>> > Mark
>> >
>> >
>>
>> I have numerous pages that are AAA compliant and
>> rank high for the target phrases.
>> Getting in to a habit of creating accessible pages is a
>> good thing to do and makes building new optimised pages
>> so much easier.
>
> let me review the accessibility - whats your url!
>
> mark
>
>

I don't create whole sites to be accessible just templates, and sections
of certain sites.
I spam the alt attributes a little bit, but not blatantly and usually only
bother complying to Bobby 508 (now changed)
Here is a sample,
http://www.sim64.co.uk/trampolines.html

mark | r wrote:

> for small sites where the nav is typically somethign like:
>
> home / about / services / products / case studies / contact
>
> it makes it hard to be accessible and optimised, dont you lot agree?

Nah. I would focus on the content of the case studies and products. Nobody
forces you to make the site small :-)

--
John Perl SEO tools: http://johnbokma.com/perl/
Experienced (web) developer: http://castleamber.com/
Get a SEO report of your site for just 100 USD:
http://johnbokma.com/websitedesign/seo-expert-help.html

On Tue, 10 May 2005 10:06:01 -0300, mark | r <markrush@gmail.com> wrote:

> anyone want to comment on this?

Mark, why don't you detect with PHP if the user-agent is one of the bots
or a real browser, and accordingly send light and keyword-free pages to
real visitors, and for bots, stuff the page with loads of keywords here
and there? I've done that for a long time now, and it works pretty well.
Here's a quick script that'll do just that:

<?

$user_agent =
array("Googlebot","msnbot","mediapartners-google","Overture","InnerpriseBot","IRLbot",
"WorldLight", "Yahoo");

for ($i=0,$bot=false;$i<sizeof($user_agent);$i++)
{
if (stristr($_SERVER['HTTP_USER_AGENT'],$user_agent[$i]))
{
$bot = true;
break;
}
}

?>


<?
if($bot) { echo "<div class=\"boost\">group of keywords here</div>"; }
?>



--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
http://www.auriance.com - http://www.auriance.net

Unknown User wrote:
> On Tue, 10 May 2005 10:06:01 -0300, mark | r <markrush@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> anyone want to comment on this?
>
>
> Mark, why don't you detect with PHP if the user-agent is one of the
> bots or a real browser, and accordingly send light and keyword-free
> pages to real visitors, and for bots, stuff the page with loads of
> keywords here and there? I've done that for a long time now, and it
> works pretty well. Here's a quick script that'll do just that:

[searchengine spam - Oke, boys and girls, don't do that at home]

Your kiddin right?

You are really advising someone else to put their position in danger?


*ploink*


Tonnie
(hmm, my first post ever and i already had to kill a troll)


--
Glas geschiedenis http://vision2form.nl/glashistorie.html
Passie en talent http://vision2form.nl/young_talent.html
Webontwerp http://vision2form.nl/webontwerp/index.html
SEO gaat zo http://vision2form.nl/webontwerp/gevonden-worden.html

We run ASP

Mark

"Unknown User" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
newsp.sqnty0elr3xrds@cinza...
> On Tue, 10 May 2005 10:06:01 -0300, mark | r <markrush@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > anyone want to comment on this?
>
> Mark, why don't you detect with PHP if the user-agent is one of the bots
> or a real browser, and accordingly send light and keyword-free pages to
> real visitors, and for bots, stuff the page with loads of keywords here
> and there? I've done that for a long time now, and it works pretty well.
> Here's a quick script that'll do just that:
>
> <?
>
> $user_agent =
>
array("Googlebot","msnbot","mediapartners-google","Overture","InnerpriseBot"
,"IRLbot",
> "WorldLight", "Yahoo");
>
> for ($i=0,$bot=false;$i<sizeof($user_agent);$i++)
> {
> if (stristr($_SERVER['HTTP_USER_AGENT'],$user_agent[$i]))
> {
> $bot = true;
> break;
> }
> }
>
> ?>
>
>
> <?
> if($bot) { echo "<div class=\"boost\">group of keywords here</div>"; }
> ?>
>
>
>
> --
> Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
> http://www.auriance.com - http://www.auriance.net

"Unknown User" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
newsp.sqnty0elr3xrds@cinza...
<snip>
> Mark, why don't you detect with PHP if the user-agent is one of the bots
> or a real browser, and accordingly send light and keyword-free pages to
> real visitors, and for bots, stuff the page with loads of keywords here
> and there? I've done that for a long time now, and it works pretty well.

You do realize that google suggest to NOT use cloaking?

http://www.google.com/webmasters/guidelines.html "Don't employ cloaking or
sneaky redirects." (in quality guidelines)

You might get penalty or have site dropped off from index totally because of
that if your competitior finds out and sends abuse info to google, or if
google finds out...